Thanks for this wonderful conversation. I've followed Iain's work since his first book was published over 12 years ago - "The Master and His Emissary."
One thing about his views - which as cultural commentary are among the most important available today - in regard to contemplative practice. Here he has a strange rather left brain (left hemisphere, that is!) take on it. Krishnamurti was similarly extreme - "you can't DO any practice because any contemplative practice would inevitably be the left hemisphere trying to control experience."
I find this rather astonishing and somewhat condescending, as if the countless thousands of contemplatives over the millennia had never thought of this. The Taoists, perhaps more than most traditions, may seem to have this attitude, but if you look closely, they include all kinds of Tantric practices they got from India.
Now, there is a deeper truth Iain is pointing to, one which Brother Lawrence found out, and one which Mother and Sri Aurobindo made the foundation of their teaching - but in a much richer, multi-dimensional way than Iain puts it.
It's true, in the deepest way, "I" can't do anything to transcend the "I". On the other hand, the very powerful views Iain puts forth are the secret to contemplative practice. If we understand the practice is not about achieving anything, but seeing experientially that "I" can't "do" anything, then practice takes on a radically different sense.
We follow our breath, we repeat mantras, we repeatedly throughout the day direct our attention to the Divine, and slowly, as our mind and heart and body come more and more into alignment, and our sense of an all pervading Divine Presence grows, we get more and more intimations of the fact that She - the Divine Beloved, the Friend of the Sufis, the G-d of the Kabbalists - has always been present in our hearts - "closer than the jugular vein," as it is said in the Koran - and it was She and IS She who inspires us to breathe, to repeat mantras, to direct our attention to Her/His/Their Presence.
I'll close with a nice story that Swami Sarvapriyananda (The famous YouTube Vedantin tells).
There is an incredible book, the "Ashtavakra Gita," which is not at all an instructional book. In fact, one of the great lines is, "Your trouble is that you meditate." It is simply a short book - a song ("Gita" literally means "song") which sings of the beauty and wonder and miracle of the all pervading Divine Self which you and I are in truth (Tat Tvam Asi - That Thou Art).
Well, a young monk came up to Swamiji one day and said, "I was looking through my guru's library and found this book. I can't understand why he didn't show it to me before. It has the entire truth. Reading it, I can see, I don't need to practice anything. I don't need to read anything else and I don't need to pray and do rituals. I'm ALREADY the Self."
Swamiji smiled and said, "Has your teacher read this book?"
"Oh yes, he's talked to me about it just recently," the young monk replied.
"Do you think he understands it," Swamiji said?
Of COURSE!"
"And," Swamiji continued, "Do you trust his guidance?"
"Why, yes, yes of course," the monk responded.
"Well" Swamiji asked him, "Does your guru meditate?"
"yes."
(Swamiji) "Does he pray and do rituals?"
"Yes."
(Swamiji) So perhaps, since you trust him, and he's read that book already, he might understand something you don't?"
Slowly, the monk realized there was far more to the spiritual journey than he realized.
******
As an addendum, when I first came across Krishnamurti in 1972, incessantly insisting that any kind of spiritual practice was the worst thing imaginable, I was flummoxed. NO matter how carefully I thought it through, it seemed ridiculous to engage in a deliberate practice (In other words, I took pretty much the same attitude that Iain does)
In 1976, I came across a little pamphlet by a David E. S. Young, which was a series of conversations Mr Young had with Krishnamurti. A little ways into the book, they are sitting along a river bank, and Krishnamurti basically gives him instructions in Vipassana (nowadays called "mindfulness" meditation - but in a much more profound way than is usually taught these days)
That was it. I never read Krishnamurti again. I will say though, that many years later, when I studied with Yogananda's American disciple, Roy Eugene Davis, I got another take on practice vs non practice. When he would guide us in meditation, he would always start with a non technique, with the recommendation of an attitude: "Open your mind and heart to the infinite."
Then he would add, "if you need a technique to quiet your wandering mind and chaotic emotions, use one. Then when the mind, emotions, vital energy and body are stilled, let go and allow the process to proceed spontaneously."
The perfect integration of left and right hemispheres!!
Thanks for this wonderful conversation. I've followed Iain's work since his first book was published over 12 years ago - "The Master and His Emissary."
One thing about his views - which as cultural commentary are among the most important available today - in regard to contemplative practice. Here he has a strange rather left brain (left hemisphere, that is!) take on it. Krishnamurti was similarly extreme - "you can't DO any practice because any contemplative practice would inevitably be the left hemisphere trying to control experience."
I find this rather astonishing and somewhat condescending, as if the countless thousands of contemplatives over the millennia had never thought of this. The Taoists, perhaps more than most traditions, may seem to have this attitude, but if you look closely, they include all kinds of Tantric practices they got from India.
Now, there is a deeper truth Iain is pointing to, one which Brother Lawrence found out, and one which Mother and Sri Aurobindo made the foundation of their teaching - but in a much richer, multi-dimensional way than Iain puts it.
It's true, in the deepest way, "I" can't do anything to transcend the "I". On the other hand, the very powerful views Iain puts forth are the secret to contemplative practice. If we understand the practice is not about achieving anything, but seeing experientially that "I" can't "do" anything, then practice takes on a radically different sense.
We follow our breath, we repeat mantras, we repeatedly throughout the day direct our attention to the Divine, and slowly, as our mind and heart and body come more and more into alignment, and our sense of an all pervading Divine Presence grows, we get more and more intimations of the fact that She - the Divine Beloved, the Friend of the Sufis, the G-d of the Kabbalists - has always been present in our hearts - "closer than the jugular vein," as it is said in the Koran - and it was She and IS She who inspires us to breathe, to repeat mantras, to direct our attention to Her/His/Their Presence.
I'll close with a nice story that Swami Sarvapriyananda (The famous YouTube Vedantin tells).
There is an incredible book, the "Ashtavakra Gita," which is not at all an instructional book. In fact, one of the great lines is, "Your trouble is that you meditate." It is simply a short book - a song ("Gita" literally means "song") which sings of the beauty and wonder and miracle of the all pervading Divine Self which you and I are in truth (Tat Tvam Asi - That Thou Art).
Well, a young monk came up to Swamiji one day and said, "I was looking through my guru's library and found this book. I can't understand why he didn't show it to me before. It has the entire truth. Reading it, I can see, I don't need to practice anything. I don't need to read anything else and I don't need to pray and do rituals. I'm ALREADY the Self."
Swamiji smiled and said, "Has your teacher read this book?"
"Oh yes, he's talked to me about it just recently," the young monk replied.
"Do you think he understands it," Swamiji said?
Of COURSE!"
"And," Swamiji continued, "Do you trust his guidance?"
"Why, yes, yes of course," the monk responded.
"Well" Swamiji asked him, "Does your guru meditate?"
"yes."
(Swamiji) "Does he pray and do rituals?"
"Yes."
(Swamiji) So perhaps, since you trust him, and he's read that book already, he might understand something you don't?"
Slowly, the monk realized there was far more to the spiritual journey than he realized.
******
As an addendum, when I first came across Krishnamurti in 1972, incessantly insisting that any kind of spiritual practice was the worst thing imaginable, I was flummoxed. NO matter how carefully I thought it through, it seemed ridiculous to engage in a deliberate practice (In other words, I took pretty much the same attitude that Iain does)
In 1976, I came across a little pamphlet by a David E. S. Young, which was a series of conversations Mr Young had with Krishnamurti. A little ways into the book, they are sitting along a river bank, and Krishnamurti basically gives him instructions in Vipassana (nowadays called "mindfulness" meditation - but in a much more profound way than is usually taught these days)
That was it. I never read Krishnamurti again. I will say though, that many years later, when I studied with Yogananda's American disciple, Roy Eugene Davis, I got another take on practice vs non practice. When he would guide us in meditation, he would always start with a non technique, with the recommendation of an attitude: "Open your mind and heart to the infinite."
Then he would add, "if you need a technique to quiet your wandering mind and chaotic emotions, use one. Then when the mind, emotions, vital energy and body are stilled, let go and allow the process to proceed spontaneously."
The perfect integration of left and right hemispheres!!