Thoughtful writing, as always. Two points for discussion:
1) I think most--even the most atheistic--would agree that the purpose of life is not only to avoid pain but to experience joy, which is why we as a species don't lightly make the decision to commit suicide. And I suspect an inability to feel joy is the primary reason people do commit suicide, rather than to avoid pain. Is this not why so few committed suicide in concentration camps, but so many survivors of the camps did commit suicide?
2) If murder is wrong because God created us, isn't it also wrong to kill animals, as God would also have created them (and it is certainly not necessary for our survival)? What about insects, also presumably created by God? Perhaps one can find a biblical excuse for the killing of animals or insects, but the bible was written by men, not God. Were those men divinely inspired? What about Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard--must we also follow their dictates? People before and after Moses have had various religious beliefs; what make ours "right" and theirs "wrong"? It all feels pretty arbitrary to me (and subject to various degrees of potential mental illness in some so-called prophets). (But I envy the believers the comfort belief brings.)
If we are here by accident, it's still a glorious miracle. We are the universe aware of its own unfathomable possibility. Life is the magic fire that changed inert, insensate matter into beings aware of existence, with an ability to have experiences and find purpose.. None of this is to be wasted or diminished.
In one sense, you're completely right. Though I might not use the word accident, I think that coming into being by chance may be the most miraculous thing of all. What I’m less sure about is the use of the word miracle. I could be wrong—I often am—but to me, a miracle suggests a subversion or transcending of the natural order. Could the natural order itself be seen as miraculous? And could the true miracle of the universe be that its Creator is hidden within it? Either way, it is a marvel, no? Wishing you health and happiness.
Putting it as "either God or Randomness" disregards chaos theory, spontaneous emergence of order at all scales. The Universe itself may be the Creative, not merely the created. And we, part of the grand order of the Universe -- yet with no separate, prior "Creator God."
Thank you for this thoughtful response. Is it possible we agree on this, and that we also agree that the anthromorphic and utterly rejectable god we were taught as children to believe in, is exactly what your describing here; albeit in different words?
Possibly we agree. In rejecting the anthropomorphic god, we might also reject the notion that there is a single "will of God," with "God" better understood as more metaphorically akin to a single individual than a polytheistic pantheon. As the cognitive linguists claim, all our understanding grounds in metaphors. We may find some metaphors have pragmatic advantages.
I'm entirely invested in the observation that beauty and virtue are integral to the ground of existence -- but in varieties, not singularly, just as the better metaphor may be in a variety of gods. And when we find inspiration, feel a spirit upon us, only extreme egotism should lead us to claim that "God" has moved us, rather than, more modestly, that we've been touched by some more local, yet good and beautiful, sprite.
Peter, Imagine a world with no randomness, no uncertainty...where nothing every breaks and needs repair, where nothing ever erodes or fades and needs restoration. Can you?
I can't. How uninteresting, how boring would it be to experience a world without any motivation to change and improve things?
Seems to me that randomness and maybe even a dash of chaos are rather vital ingredients of the recipe.
Yes—and it seems to me there’s already quite enough randomness and chaos baked into this world. If God (or whatever word you use) is One—holistic, indivisible—then wouldn’t disorder also be part of creation? Was my sister Susie’s death, at the hands of a driver who’d fallen asleep at the wheel, not also part of creation?
Peter, I want you to know that I have the utmost empathy for you losing Susie when you were both so young. It's obvious that it still weighs heavily on your heart all of these years later. I just pray for God's Justice to square it all up one day and that you two will be reunited in laughter and joy.
And just maybe, after you both catch up, she'll even explain to you how she was the lucky one :)
Thoughtful writing, as always. Two points for discussion:
1) I think most--even the most atheistic--would agree that the purpose of life is not only to avoid pain but to experience joy, which is why we as a species don't lightly make the decision to commit suicide. And I suspect an inability to feel joy is the primary reason people do commit suicide, rather than to avoid pain. Is this not why so few committed suicide in concentration camps, but so many survivors of the camps did commit suicide?
2) If murder is wrong because God created us, isn't it also wrong to kill animals, as God would also have created them (and it is certainly not necessary for our survival)? What about insects, also presumably created by God? Perhaps one can find a biblical excuse for the killing of animals or insects, but the bible was written by men, not God. Were those men divinely inspired? What about Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard--must we also follow their dictates? People before and after Moses have had various religious beliefs; what make ours "right" and theirs "wrong"? It all feels pretty arbitrary to me (and subject to various degrees of potential mental illness in some so-called prophets). (But I envy the believers the comfort belief brings.)
If we are here by accident, it's still a glorious miracle. We are the universe aware of its own unfathomable possibility. Life is the magic fire that changed inert, insensate matter into beings aware of existence, with an ability to have experiences and find purpose.. None of this is to be wasted or diminished.
In one sense, you're completely right. Though I might not use the word accident, I think that coming into being by chance may be the most miraculous thing of all. What I’m less sure about is the use of the word miracle. I could be wrong—I often am—but to me, a miracle suggests a subversion or transcending of the natural order. Could the natural order itself be seen as miraculous? And could the true miracle of the universe be that its Creator is hidden within it? Either way, it is a marvel, no? Wishing you health and happiness.
Putting it as "either God or Randomness" disregards chaos theory, spontaneous emergence of order at all scales. The Universe itself may be the Creative, not merely the created. And we, part of the grand order of the Universe -- yet with no separate, prior "Creator God."
Whit,
Thank you for this thoughtful response. Is it possible we agree on this, and that we also agree that the anthromorphic and utterly rejectable god we were taught as children to believe in, is exactly what your describing here; albeit in different words?
Peter,
Possibly we agree. In rejecting the anthropomorphic god, we might also reject the notion that there is a single "will of God," with "God" better understood as more metaphorically akin to a single individual than a polytheistic pantheon. As the cognitive linguists claim, all our understanding grounds in metaphors. We may find some metaphors have pragmatic advantages.
I'm entirely invested in the observation that beauty and virtue are integral to the ground of existence -- but in varieties, not singularly, just as the better metaphor may be in a variety of gods. And when we find inspiration, feel a spirit upon us, only extreme egotism should lead us to claim that "God" has moved us, rather than, more modestly, that we've been touched by some more local, yet good and beautiful, sprite.
Peter, Imagine a world with no randomness, no uncertainty...where nothing every breaks and needs repair, where nothing ever erodes or fades and needs restoration. Can you?
I can't. How uninteresting, how boring would it be to experience a world without any motivation to change and improve things?
Seems to me that randomness and maybe even a dash of chaos are rather vital ingredients of the recipe.
Yes—and it seems to me there’s already quite enough randomness and chaos baked into this world. If God (or whatever word you use) is One—holistic, indivisible—then wouldn’t disorder also be part of creation? Was my sister Susie’s death, at the hands of a driver who’d fallen asleep at the wheel, not also part of creation?
Peter, I want you to know that I have the utmost empathy for you losing Susie when you were both so young. It's obvious that it still weighs heavily on your heart all of these years later. I just pray for God's Justice to square it all up one day and that you two will be reunited in laughter and joy.
And just maybe, after you both catch up, she'll even explain to you how she was the lucky one :)
Keep the faith my brother!